MCU is mixing two different kinds of multiverses

The way the multiverse works in Loki feels fundamentally different from how it works in Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness, and I don’t think that’s accidental. I think the MCU is actually dealing with two different phenomena but keeps calling both “the multiverse,” which is why timelines and universes feel weirdly interchangeable.

##**Type I**
**Timeline branching induced**

In Loki, everything is clearly about time. Branches are created by time travel, Kang variants come from diverging timelines, and the threat is a multiversal war caused by uncontrolled branching. Loki’s role at the end of Season 2 makes the most sense if what he’s holding together is this timeline-based multiverse, not every possible universe that exists.

##**Type II**
**Parallel Universe based**

Multiverse of Madness feels completely different. America Chavez travels between fully independent universes, incursions happen because universes collide, and none of this is really about time travel. This lines up much more with the comics’ incursion stories, which were always about parallel universes, not timeline branches or Kang.

If you separate these two ideas—a timeline-induced multiverse (Kang/Loki) and a parallel-universe multiverse (incursions/Strange)—a lot of contradictions disappear. Kang doesn’t need to be tied to incursions, Loki doesn’t need to be holding literally all reality, and universes like the Illuminati one don’t need to be awkwardly explained as “long-diverged branches.”

Maybe Marvel blurred this distinction on purpose for simplicity, but conceptually, treating timelines and parallel universes as the same thing creates more problems than it solves. Curious if anyone else sees it this way or if there’s something on screen that directly contradicts it.

Voir le contenu lié

Commentaires

_NauticalPhoenix_2026-01-02 03:58

It’s the same multiverse. It’s explained in Endgame and Loki. Different universes have their own timeline, thus you can time travel within them AND hop between universes.

That-Rhino-Guy2026-01-02 15:17

Also the Multiverse style the MCU uses is pretty similar to the comic one

sworedmagic2026-01-02 17:07

Yeah i mean on paper it’s the easiest to understand

That-Rhino-Guy2026-01-02 19:37

Kinda but Multiverse styles in general can be kinda tricky to fully understand at first, also worth mentioning the comics did also have some implications of the higher dimensional/string theory style Multiverse that DC’s more known for

Mr-Stuff-Doer2026-01-02 19:08

Yeah a separate timeline is a synonym of a separate universe as far as I’m concerned

CanIchangethisplease2026-01-02 23:31

Separate timelines are created by time travel. Separate universes are created by decisions and dice throws

LetItATV2026-01-03 01:44

Time travel is just a means of changing decisions.

Kahlypso2026-01-03 03:59

.....that's not at all what he's saying.

A universe is a distinct line that runs up and down the y axis. Branching timelines are the various branches of each multiverse's central line.

Crafted_Pickaxe212026-01-02 23:36

"What If?" showed the Multiverse as easily traversable, while MoM showed only one person to be capable of traveling.

These 2 ideas don't mix, unless there are different scales going on. He has the right idea.

_NauticalPhoenix_2026-01-02 23:58

The only scales are the power scales of the characters capable of traversing it.

LetItATV2026-01-03 01:46

> while MoM showed only one person to be capable of traveling

Yet *No Way Home* had several characters travel by means of a spell.

Crafted_Pickaxe212026-01-03 01:52

Tbh, I don't think we'll ever understand how that worked.

LetItATV2026-01-03 04:25

The only explanation that works is that there’s not actually a difference in multiverse travel.

grendelsbayne2026-01-04 12:20

Nothing in MoM says America is the only person in existence capable of multiversal travel.

It just says Wanda wants to steal America's power and Strange isn't immediately capable of approximating a means of direct travel so he settles for indirect travel.

LetItATV2026-01-03 02:00

What makes a universe distinct from a timeline?

ProductArizona2026-01-02 04:08

Its all the same bro

ExpressMud80382026-01-02 04:16

its the same. The longer ago the timelines split, the more different they will evolve.

Maybe 828 was the exact same as 616, up until George Washington never became president or something.

Filmfan3452026-01-02 05:38

There is a difference and they both fit. Watch this. This explains it using on-screen evidence and official quotes

https://youtu.be/OEaIoQY14TY?si=hJu8iS4smpiNHpls

monekys2026-01-02 06:14

2 hours !!!!

rohithkumarsp2026-01-02 08:42

Holy shit, I though it's 20 mins, went back to link again to see it's 2 hours

MishellyUser2026-01-02 07:23

A Bit of Everything Mentioned

![gif](giphy|9EvnXdZaUZbCqScn67)

a_o2026-01-02 08:37

It’s really the GOAT YouTube channel for people that can’t pick up on some of this stuff by simply watching the shows and movies.

ManitouWakinyan2026-01-02 07:17

At what point did time travel make Loki an Alligator

VitaminPb2026-01-02 07:31

Loki is technically a shapeshifter.

DarthSomething052026-01-02 07:42

Probably would’ve diverged a few million or billion years ago

Own_Giraffe_69282026-01-02 14:44

Then why didn't the TVA prune it then? Why did they wait billions of years for alligator Loki to be born before wiping it out? They exist outside of time, there's literally nothing stopping them from pruning it the very moment it diverged. Which is precisely what they do with the timeline show Loki is from, they pruned it as soon as he stole the Tesseract, which is what caused the branch.

EmpJoker2026-01-02 14:53

They're not pruning timelines just because they differ, they're specifically pruning timelines that result in another Kang rising to power.

NotoriousDCJ43102026-01-02 15:09

How would you claim to know when Alligator Loki was pruned? Who's to say he wasn't pruned as soon as he was born?

knokout642026-01-02 18:48

And this is why Marvel hesitates to do silly, fun shit. Some nerd will get upset that alligator Loki doesn't make perfect sense.

closetsquirrel2026-01-02 20:31

I think you missed the point of the TVA and their pruning.

The TVA's job was to maintain the Sacred Timeline, ensuring that Kang would not duplicate and create a multiversal war (which is what Kang Dynasty would've been about).

They weren't concerned with other alternate realities or their timelines. They weren't concerned with branches that occurred before Kang's existence. And they weren't concerned with minor changes to the timeline.

They were concerned with Nexus Events which would create branches reaching a critical point that would allow Kang an opportunity to exist or duplicate.

Loki being an alligator, due to being in The Void, meant either him being or becoming an alligator caused a Nexus Event, or that version of Loki was involved in a Nexus Event *at some point*. The timeline could've diverged millions or billions of years ago, but the Nexus event that caused Alligator Loki to be pruned could've happened very recently.

ExpressMud80382026-01-02 09:36

from a million years ago where life evolved from reptiles instead of primates.

cardiffman1002026-01-02 10:21

Except, Loki in 616 is not descended from a primate, he's a frost giant. I'm not buying the divergent line in this context, this is a case of a parallel universe, not a branch.

ExpressMud80382026-01-02 11:09

Everything I said still holds true, just replace "primates" with "frost giants"

Educational-Oil-14972026-01-02 11:13

You could go back to the big bang and if one atom is in a different place that affects that entire universe. The multiverse can easily be explained as a series of different timelines depending on where they separated

Willal2122026-01-02 13:15

Nerd moment: technically Marvel Gods are created by the consciousness and dreams of the life forms that worship them. So yes, if earthy alligators replaced earthly humans evolutionarily, then the Loki of that earth is the creation of Nordic alligators…..

idlefritz2026-01-02 12:09

Let me tell you the tale of the ice giant that summered in the bayou.

IdyllicGod222026-01-02 12:10

This made me laugh so hard lol.

Though, I think that’s easily explained as him shape shifting into an alligator for a prank, pranking the wrong magic-wielder (maybe Agatha?) and getting cursed to stay that way for eternity.

SiON42X2026-01-02 12:24

Watch Everything Everywhere All At Once. It helps.

atlastadragon2026-01-02 13:03

I mean, in the Loki series the TVA says that the Loki alligator is likely just an alligator pretending to be Loki but then admit that is still a very Loki thing to do.

ChiefSteward2026-01-02 19:15

Or a world made of hand drawn abstract shapes?

SamuraiJack22112026-01-03 16:49

Im a day later, but in Norse mythology Loki often takes the form of different animal just because he CAN (even change genders of said animal, hes weird). Maybe alligator Loki is just Loki who transformed to escape Thanos or other danger and hes just to scared to turn back/or cant.

ManitouWakinyan2026-01-03 19:22

Sure, but you also have Black Loki, female Loki, etc. like, clearly these are alternate universes where some constant is different, not just timelines that diverged due to butterfly effect.

SamuraiJack22112026-01-03 19:31

Yea that all makes sense to me as well, I was talking specifically about Loki in animal form, Loki's gender, skin color, etc can be ignored here.

Uzmonkey2026-01-03 23:21

Or, you know, the universe where everything is made of paint.

PraiseRao2026-01-03 23:29

You have a problem with Loki being an Alligator who the fuck do youa think birthed Odin's steed? It's a common thing with Loki in norse mythology and Marvel he's a shapeshifter.

KostisPat2572026-01-02 09:53

Nope. Numbered universes (616, 828 etc) are completely different trees in the same forest and each tree has its own branches. What Loki is holding is the 616 tree.

Michael Waldron has confirmed this and it's also evident in Kang's hologram presentation in Quantumania.

Shantotto112026-01-02 10:13

“You mean to tell me Germany losing is cosmic anomaly?…”

-Reed Richards 616

ITCoder2026-01-02 23:29

which /what kind of event causes the timeline split ?

eagc72026-01-02 04:27

Micheal Waldron the creator of Loki and Writer on Multiverse of Madness does seem to lean more to the idea of there is a difference between real parallel universes and branched timelines from that universe.

As he did said that going from a branch is one thing since its anchored to your original timeline, but what America can do is travel between universes that aren't anchored to the sacred timeline, so that makes her more unique.

Antrikshy2026-01-02 04:40

IIRC he said it’s a bunch of different trees. So each universe in the multiverse can have its own timeline branches. So like a forest of trees.

Palmquistador2026-01-02 04:58

That makes the most sense

HyruleBalverine2026-01-02 05:19

This is the best explanation. It's also why, say, the cartoons and the comics don't mix into the "sacred timeline" of the MCU. They are their own trees with their own branches. Though, as usual, Sony doesn't seem to play along (or, perhaps, whatever tech Miguel is using does the same thing that America can do?).

Antrikshy2026-01-02 05:52

I consider those universes to be in their own multiverse(s). Otherwise, live action won’t be able to do multiverse spanning things, such as destroying every Darkhold, without becoming inconsistent with the comics. And vice versa.

Own_Giraffe_69282026-01-02 14:49

Miguel refers to the MCU as Earth-199999, while within the MCU it's referred to 616. So they're probably two different, yet suspiciously similar universes within their own multiverses. So if Tom Holland shows up in Beyond the Spider-verse, he'd be from Earth-199999 and not 616.

HyruleBalverine2026-01-02 21:35

To be fair, Marvel used to refer to the MCU as Earth 199999... right up to the Multiverse Saga and Far From Home in particular.

raze4642026-01-02 05:34

Waldron said it was like a rope, not trees.

From Waldron's interview with ScreenCrush (*ScreenCrush is apparently a spam domain so please look up **Creator Michael Waldron Answers All Our Questions About ‘Loki’ And ‘Heels’** on whatever search engine you use*):

> If you zoomed in on the timeline, it wouldn’t necessarily look like a straight line. It might look like almost the intertwined strands of a rope fluctuating and spiking here and there.

AreStrong2026-01-02 06:25

How is it any different from what my post is implying?

SpideyFan9142026-01-02 06:34

I think they're agreeing with you, and citing a writer quote to back you up.

LetItATV2026-01-03 02:05

Okay, so all the trees just came to be independently?

They have no common origin?

yuuki1572026-01-05 18:42

This is the easiest way to explain all of it. Ty.

raze4642026-01-02 05:45

> but what America can do is travel between universes that aren't anchored to the sacred timeline

He doesn't say America can travel to universes aren't anchored to the sacred timeline. He says that travel from one universe to another is impossible but America can so she can do the impossible.

eagc72026-01-02 06:24

Correct, thanks for the refresher, that was what i was trying to get across, i didn't remembered the exact wordings, but i did remember what he was trying to get across.

robbviously2026-01-02 06:32

I have a save file for a video game. I mess up and go back to a save point and play though again - I’ve created a branch universe from a single timeline.

Meanwhile, my husband has a separate save file for the same game - separate timeline in a parallel universe - similar yet independent realities.

Never the two shall meet (except in the online version of the game/a third universe/alternate reality) to prevent an incursion.

CrucialElement2026-01-02 10:48

And also, there are other video games! Ha

Bross932026-01-02 16:01

A+ analogy!

FerrusManlyManus2026-01-02 07:49

Sure but if a branch happens far back enough it can be vastly different.

Also, the “sacred timeline” which was actually a bundle of related timelines, is a scam by HWR. There’s nothing sacred about it.

Segwaye2026-01-02 04:36

I agree with you. And even if I’m technically wrong, it is poorly explained that I am. I still don’t understand how there can be an alligator Loki because of a renegade timeline.

MoM makes more sense and is the standard. Basically, anything can be anything at anytime.

I wonder if they will set some dialogue to explain timelines/universes/dimensions in Endgame.

dufftheduff2026-01-02 05:28

Loki was not born an Asgardian in any way but he looks like one to us. Alligator Loki just comes from a parallel universe (which once upon a time was a branched timeline that could have branched away any point in the history of ever) where he chose the form of an alligator and kept it (who knows why lmao), much like he dons the Asgardian form we know now

LeoNickle2026-01-02 06:03

How do you explain Throg then?

dufftheduff2026-01-02 06:06

Good question, I don’t know his origins personally. My best guess was that he was a victim of a magical transformation that was permanent. Like Loki when he chose his form but perhaps Throg’s wasn’t as voluntary since he doesn’t innately have that power.

Specific_Tear6322026-01-02 12:20

> "In the comics, Throg was a man named Simon Walterson who was transformed into a frog by a witch."

the-bi-frost2026-01-02 17:40

It's from a deleted scene: https://youtu.be/jE5uPqjaDyw?si=hroEA5tUfB2GNn7y

An-292026-01-02 07:55

>I still don’t understand how there can be an alligator Loki because of a renegade timeline.

Because it's a different timeline altogether and that it branched off from the main timeline within the very moment to first billion years after the big bang. That's how parallel earths end up happening. Timeline split branches are smaller and more recent branches. Think of them as the small branches that grow from the already growing branches from the trunk. While the branches growing from the trunk are the many parralell earths.

Visible_Safe_89012026-01-02 13:47

>I still don’t understand how there can be an alligator Loki because of a renegade timeline.

Bcz the timeline started from the big bang. Alligator Loki being born is just a fluctuation.

Crafted_Pickaxe212026-01-02 23:50

I like to imagine it was a time in Loki's childhood where he was cursed by a witch to be an alligator, as a punishment for being a trickster, and while in that form, he eats a neighbor's cat.
But in one version of this moment, he eats the wrong one, and the TVA show up. He can't change to humanoid form because of the curse, and stays an alligator in the Void forever.

Segwaye2026-01-03 01:19

I love that

Dave13072026-01-02 04:37

You're mixing up parallel universes and time traveling. Both can happen but they aren't the same

marvelcomics222026-01-02 04:49

That's the same thing. There are multiple timelines in Universe 616, and there are other universes.

Amazing-Activity-8822026-01-02 07:42

*19999 Not 616 that's the Comics

rohithkumarsp2026-01-02 09:03

Wait wut.... I'm so confused. I just assumed multiple universe with multiple timelines. But watching end game they go to thier own universe at different time not to a different universe, i didn't think of this.

marvelcomics222026-01-02 09:30

In Endgame, they had branched timelines. They create those timelines by traveling through time, same thing happened in Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 7. What we saw in Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness, those were different universes, those weren't created by time travel.

rohithkumarsp2026-01-02 09:37

I saw all of Shield except 7, I think 6 is where he goes to Tahiti? I've forgotten everything about the show.

So what about no way home the were all pulled from different universe but all form earth not from alligator world or something and, and returned to the same point to die? Isn't that what Steve also does by returning all the stones back?

So there's like infinite timelines of one universe and infinite timeline of multiple universe?

marvelcomics222026-01-02 10:13

Tahiti (the country) was at the end of S5, where Coulson went before he died. Season 7, they time traveled, creating a new timeline. The Spider-Men and villains in No Way Home were from different universes, not different timelines, and Steve put the stones back in different timelines. There are infinite timelines in each universe, and there are infinite universes.

rohithkumarsp2026-01-02 10:32

Yeah so I've only seen until season 5 then. So if there's infinite timeline and infinite universe, what is the TVA monitoring, the timelines or universe?

Does that mean they can travel in between universe but not have an incursion of timeline since they're in a completely different universe?

If stones were created at big bang as the ancient ones said and removing one stone from one timeline would create incursions, if they had traveled to another universes where it's already dead, they could simply use take it without having any impact right?

Also in Deadpool we get to know things that are purges go to void, form different universe or timeline? Given Johny Strom and old xmen characters are present, it's from different universe, is there any evidence of things form different timelines?

If void is all the things form different timelines an universe, why is there different heavens like vallaha or Duat or Ancestral Plane but a singular void?

ChaosCron12026-01-02 04:56

Technically, Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse shows that Loki's Multiversal Tree, which was created from the "Sacred Timeline", exists within a greater Multiverse.

Zmrdizhor2026-01-02 16:49

Spider-Man across the spider-verse its not canon to the mcu. Just sony trying to leech.

IamJohnnyHotPants2026-01-02 05:12

Yes

eriverside2026-01-02 05:16

You're right, they messed up their interpretation and introduction of the concept.

They spent so much time digging deeper into the branched timelines but casually ignored alternate dimensions that exist.

You can't go far enough to find a divergence of the paint of dimension. It's just a different realm. Same for the whatever realm dormamu is from.

This also doesn't help with the complications of the iterations of the universe (the big bang wasn't the first big bang).

The alternate timelines should be a niche thing within the overarching alternate dimensions.

AreStrong2026-01-02 06:47

100% agreed with the last line.

dufftheduff2026-01-02 05:17

Parallel/different universes are just wildly organic timeline branches. I’d wager to say every single infinite number of universes in existence all had the exact same very, very, very, very beginning. The farther is branches from its original universe, the more it changes, the more distinct of a parallel universe it is. But every one is still just branching, branching away. Loki explained pretty clearly it can be giant or absolutely tiny differences that start the waves of new parallel universes (like a random guy who missed his alarm and was late for work or something)

Filmfan3452026-01-02 05:36

This explains it using on-screen evidence and official quotes

https://youtu.be/OEaIoQY14TY?si=hJu8iS4smpiNHpls

WildSinatra2026-01-02 06:52

Glad to see more people pushing AboE - this really is the definitive multiverse explanation and nothing else comes close.

Hyperbolicalpaca2026-01-02 15:54

I dont suppose for those of us who’d rather *watch* a two hour movie than watch a video *about* two hour movies, you could give a summery lol

Filmfan3452026-01-02 16:04

There are time stamps. Watch chapters 9-11 for the premise of this post.

Crafted_Pickaxe212026-01-03 00:02

The Multiverse is not simply one idea or the other, it is both, combined into one unified model.
Our MCU, 616, has possibilities branch off of it, and all of this possibility was teased at in What If and Loki. But He Who Remains caused it to be limited down to a rope constraining the branches to align with a rough series of events, so he would be hidden from the other Kangs, and his universe would only produce himself, not other variants.

Loki frees the universe and it's branches, but it needs to be powered by him, producing Loki's Tree.

Multiverse of Madness shows the outer Multiverse, with 838, 828, 10005, etc. These alternate Universes have their own branches. And if those branches touch, Incursions can happen. Hence Monica Rambeau staying in the X-Men universe is a problem.

We call this the Forest Model, because despite the alternate universes not being trees like 616 is, it is just a simple visual to indicate the overall shape of things.

Safe-Finding-43762026-01-02 05:42

yes because they ARE different things and always have been. Loki deals with timelines.

The multiverse is like a forest, and each universe is a tree in that forest. Each tree has its own (timeline) branches.

When the branches are allowed to grow, they can collide with the branches of other trees and create connection points between them allowing people to travel between them as normally it's impossible to travel between trees unless you're America Chavez.

This is also why What If...? stories are very closely tied to the events of the 616 universe, because they're branches on the 616 tree. But things like the Raimi-Verse, the Webb-Verse, the Fox universe, etc. are all very different.

Zmrdizhor2026-01-02 16:49

No it's just one tree with lots of branches.

LetItATV2026-01-03 02:09

Where do the different trees come from?

Ninjatweeters2026-01-02 05:45

Bold headers and titles, long - to connect sentences. What did you give AI for this response?

AreStrong2026-01-02 06:50

Donno.

I just copy pasted what I wrote in my notes app to ChatGPT, asked to improve the grammar and to make it more reddit post like.

Imo the ideas which I'm discussing is what really matter.

But I did the formatting on my own.

n_w__b_rm_d_2026-01-02 08:04

> But I did the formatting on my own.

I'd love to see someone try to use this as an excuse on an assignment

"Yes professor, I fed my notes and ideas into an LLM and asked it to basically write my paper for me, but I double-spaced it myself"

AreStrong2026-01-02 08:19

I plead guilty.

Forgive me and I shall never use AI for writing a post.

VestOfHolding2026-01-02 08:20

"More Reddit post like"? What does that even mean?

Just make your own posts, it's fine.

AreStrong2026-01-02 08:22

"Shorter" I guess.

BIGBMH2026-01-02 05:50

IMO, the Loki series just made a needlessly convoluted mess of things

InfinityThor182026-01-02 06:03

I've been saying this for awhile. Marvel (film) does not understand the difference between timelines and universes. It's part of why I really disliked watching Loki

AreStrong2026-01-02 06:36

Exactly.

The whole kang war should have occurred some other time in future of the MCU. And we could have full focus on the Parallel Universe incursions and Secret Wars stuff.

Kang can come back anytime really.

I think Marvel now is focusing on the MoM Parallel Universe path now, since Doctor Doom is the main villian of the MCU for the next two avengers movies and the second movie it's is called "Secret Wars", I'm pretty sure they're going the story similar to Avengers Time Runs out and following events leading to Doom ruling a place outside of the incursion-ed multiverse through Molecule Man.

Edit: Just had to add. Marvel started the whole Loki thing only because their plan *was* to go with Kang War. So, I think, we can almost completely ignore events of Loki Series. As long we are aware of MoM, we're good.

Lol

Marvel was really messy fr last couple of years.

Thinking about it, Deadpool & Wolverine need not have happened. Heck, they could've said Deadpool simply existed in a different Parallel Universe.

Oh, wait!
Now, we saw Chris Evans Johnny Storm in the Deadpool movie thrown into a wasteland dimension by the TVA. We also saw so many other characters like Elektra, Blade. Oh no. This means Marvel is treating the Universes these characters came from as pruned timelines (there's no way they could've ended up here otherwise).

Man, this planning from Marvel side is so fking sloppy.

dzan796ero2026-01-02 10:40

It's refreshing to be able to point this out because after MoM I got pissed off about this exact thing but couldn't bring it up anywhere without getting hordes of fanatics frothing frenetically. Mindlessly blurting out "it's the multiverse so ANYTHING is possible!!!!" over and over again doesn't add any plot consistency. Just because there are infinite possibilities in the multiverse doesn't mean everything that could ever happen has happened. Like where did the timeline branch off of in order to create alligator Loki... what would even make that gators identity Loki. How do you define Slyvie as "a Loki" when the timeline obviously broke up early enough from the "sacred timeline" so that Loki was a woman but not long enough ago so there is no being equivalent to Loki. Then again Sylvie doesn't even identify as Loki and really doesn't carry any Loki-esque characteristics. Same goes for the other Lokis. The only thing Loki about then is their helmets and the fact that the TVA called them Lokis. So are Lokis for some reason essential to the sacred timeline? What makes Loki Loki? I thought we would get some soul searching similar to Legion but I guess I was expecting too much. And then... all the other multiverse stuff doesn't add up.

I feel like each writer watched a different episode of Rick and Morty and based their multiiverse on it. They didn't even realize what it was they needed to agree upon.

kennyswallow2026-01-02 07:22

This exactly what I was thinking, I'm so glad someone else has brought this up.

Something interesting that I noticed was that thus far, the timeline branching has been manipulated by science and technology, as used by Kang and the TVA. As seen in Loki, timelines seem to branch infinitely, as if the natural order is chaos and expansion, and the only way to keep it "stable" is for He Who Remains to keep it in check with technology.

On the other hand, parallel universes seem to be more affected by magic/sorcery/witchcraft. This is apparent in SM:NWH where Strange's spell was so wide in scope that it not only brought in alternate Peter Parkers, but even more so those that come from universes that seem to have world rules that are vastly different than the ones that embody 616. Otherwise, the spell would have simply brought in alternate Tom Holland versions of the characters, implying that both magic and technology seems to work on different scopes from one another. Other examples of magic affecting parallel universes is in Wandavision when Wanda somehow pulls in a variant of Pietro from the Fox universe (unsure if this actually implies anything) or more clearly in MoM when two Doctor Strange variants caused incursions that destroyed universes. This seemed to imply that, unlike timelines being regulated by technology, parallel universes are stable until acted upon by forces of magic.

Loki season 2 then provided a bridge between technology and magic when Loki made himself the God of Stories and created the world tree, establishing stability of timelines through magic. At first, I assumed that this would be a plot point in big Avengers saga. Since the first film planned was Kang Dynasty, I assumed that variants of Kang would use their technology to wage a large war between timelines, in which the Avengers would try to counter this chaos using magic, that would ultimately backfire and create incursions that would result in Battleworld in Secret Wars, where MCU Avengers, Fox X-Men, and alternate universe Fantastic Four would come together.

However, Deadpool and Wolverine completely destroyed this theory of timeline and universe separation within the first 10 minutes of the film, when Wade travels to 616 (the scene where he interviews for the Avengers with Happy) by using Cable's time-travel device.

Again, TIME-TRAVEL device!

He is then captured by the TVA, who is responsible for governing the SACRED TIMELINE, and then goes searching for a Wolverine replacement, which, aside from the "Cavillrine", all seem to be variants of the main Hugh Jackman Wolverine from the Fox universe. This means that "parallel universes" and "branched timelines" are the EXACT same.

There are some projects I haven't watched yet, notably What If S2 and S3, that could provide a good explanation as to why this is, but man was I disappointed when I realized this is the direction they were heading. I still hold out hope though, as Doomsday could very well provide a really good storyline with this concept, given that Doctor Doom is known for combining science and magic.

I should also mention that I have little to no knowledge of how the comics have dealt with the multiverse.

FerrusManlyManus2026-01-02 07:44

“ In Loki, everything is clearly about time. Branches are created by time travel, Kang variants come from diverging timelines, and the threat is a multiversal war caused by uncontrolled branching. ”

No, only some branches are created by time travel. Other branches occur naturally. Sylvie, Old Loki, no evidence at all they occurred by time travel. The multiversal war was EXPLICITLY caused by Kangs beings jerks and fighting. Not by branching.

AreStrong2026-01-02 07:47

But Kang was *always* about Time Travel.

FerrusManlyManus2026-01-02 07:55

Maybe re-read my comment?

AreStrong2026-01-02 07:59

I meant to say, different Kang Variants fought to basically make their own timeline "the scared timeline" or to take over many other timelines/mature branches on their own.

FerrusManlyManus2026-01-02 08:02

Ok, nice random tangent but not related to my comment. Maybe go to bed and reply to me tomorrow?

AreStrong2026-01-02 08:20

I'm from a different time zone.

FerrusManlyManus2026-01-02 08:26

Take a nap then you clearly are not following the conversation properly

hydrgn2026-01-02 07:51

No amount of time travel divergence could turn the universe into a paint universe or comic book universe so they are two different concepts.

ComicBrickz2026-01-02 11:51

Why

MyKillYourDeath2026-01-02 15:14

Okay what? That’s where you draw the line? Time travel, different universes, and super powered beings are fine but paint and comic book universes are too far?

It can be hand waved away. Let’s just say someone like Reed had an experiment and after a conflict it went awry and changed the universe at a fundamental level. Boom. Explained.

Hyperbolicalpaca2026-01-02 15:53

Why not?

If the split occurred at the very earliest stages of the universe, potentially before physics really existed, I do t see why they couldn’t be radically different…

Actually, this is a universe where six glowy rocks can kill half of all life, I don’t see why there couldn’t be a universe where thanos’s plan involved turning the universe into paint

Zmrdizhor2026-01-02 16:47

Yea it could. That universe could be split right at the big bang or whatever and develop differently right from the start.

Necessary_Ad21142026-01-02 19:22

Or some kind of God of Art conquered the Marvel universe and the Avengers weren’t there to stop it. We never saw Apollo in Love and Thunder. Maybe he fled to a branched universe he could recreate in his own image.

hydrgn2026-01-03 14:32

Afaik the laws of physics and time began at the moment of the big bang so any time divergences would all be based on similar physics

Zmrdizhor2026-01-03 16:47

There probably wasn’t even big bang in marvel. They use different origin stories.

LibraryMatt2026-01-03 01:11

Huh? why not? Some god like being with the infinity gauntlet snaps his finger and says "paint universe". There is now a paint universe.

LetItATV2026-01-03 01:58

Then what could turn a universe into all-paint or a comic book?

Stevenwave2026-01-02 08:38

I do think there's a difference between timelines/branches and dimensions.

I take it as they didn't set it in stone ahead of time so some of the wording gets a bit overlappy. Reality is they decided as they went as to how things would work. iirc Strange 1 was the first we learn of other dimensions, like the Mirror Dimension and Dark Dimension, but they word it as a multiverse.

Conflicts like the one we see between Strange and Dormammu suggest there's likely a different Dark Dimension for each branch/reality. Otherwise the same bad guy would have to fight every version of Strange or that fight only ever happened once.

But, Janet Van Dyne and her experience in the Quantum Realm is different. She already had history and knowledge of that Kang down there. Presumably before even Endgame. That means Janet and Kang were in the QR, separate to branches or dimensions. So I think there's "realms" or perhaps just that one which can connect to it all. Which makes sense considering the Avengers were able to use tech to traverse the QR and travel in some way through time.

So I think it's all "the multiverse" but there's layers to it.

Basically I think one form is a difference in space and time, whereas the other stuff is a difference in other things.

AvatarIII2026-01-02 11:47

>I do think there's a difference between timelines/branches and dimensions.

Agreed, some of the dimensions shown in MoM are not possibly created by a branching timeline. Red means go, sure that could be a branch, but the paint dimension? What change in history could have caused that?

adamwhitemusic2026-01-02 17:04

Just because you're simple Earth mind can't fathom an explanation for a paint universe doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the INFINITE multiverse.

Infinite means infinite. Literally every possible thing that could be imagined, and then an infinite number of other things that can't be imagined. And an infinite number of timelines within every one of those with a branch for every atom that moves a slightly different way. Infinite is so overwhelming.

The TVA is more like a filter for our particular section of the multiverse, where they sequester our slice from any that would create a Kang. It doesn't mean that those universes that create Kangs don't exist, they just exist outside of our filtered slice of the multiverse because they all were pruned. There are still an infinite number of universes that he does exist, and an infinite number of TVAs sequestering off an infinite number of branches by sending things to an infinite number of voids. And an infinite number where the Kangs run rampant through their slice of the multiverse.

The_Orgin2026-01-02 08:53

I've thought that too but it doesn't make sense.

Loki S1 E1

*Long ago, there was a vast multiversal war.*

*Countless unique timelines battled each other for supremacy, nearly resulting in the total destruction of…well, everything.*

*But then, the all-knowing Time-Keepers emerged, bringing peace by reorganizing the multiverse into a single timeline, the Sacred Timeline.*

Loki S1 E6

*Eons ago, before the TVA, a variant of myself lived on Earth in the 31st century. He was a scientist and he discovered that there were universes stacked on top of his own... They shared technology and knowledge. Using the best of their universes to improve the others. However… not every version of me was so… so pure of heart. To some of us, new worlds meant only one thing, new lands to be conquered. The peace between realities erupted into all-out war, each variant fighting to preserve their universe and annihilate the others. This was almost the end ladies and gentlemen, of everything and everyone.*

The Space Multiverse and Time Multiverse are the same multiverse. The Time Tree did not come into existence a few centuries after the Battle of New York. Because the TVA exists out of time. The time tree always existed. **FOR ALL TIME TIME. ALWAYS**

MirkwoodWanderer12026-01-02 09:35

The time tree of lokis universe exists separately to the other universes. So the other universes were never destroyed, they were just on the outside of the sacred timeline.

Lokis tree is basically just a tree in a forest that got pruned so its branches didn't touch another tree.

ThePurpleSoul702026-01-02 09:06

You don't understand how this works. It's all based on the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Type 1 and 2 are one in the same because branches have been happening since before the beginning of the universe, so any given universe can be completely different while also being a branch originating from the same common reality.

You also seem to be under the impression that only time-travel causes branches, which... Did you actually watch Loki? Branches are caused by any event. Every event has multiple potential outcomes and each individual one is a branch.

MirkwoodWanderer12026-01-02 09:38

Type 1 and 2 are different though.

Timeline branches are like branches on a tree but other universes like in MoM are just on different trees altogether.

So for example, the tree of universes that Loki is holding wouldn't include the universe they went to in MoM.

ThePurpleSoul702026-01-02 09:51

You're just saying words and they don't make any sense. Nothing about what we've seen on-screen makes me think you're right, sorry.

As far as we know, it's one multiverse, and each branch is a different reality. Each one can be as similar or a different as any other. That's how Many-Worlds multiverses in fiction have always worked.

MirkwoodWanderer12026-01-02 10:02

Kang said he isolated the sacred timeline. That means he removed it from the other ones, not that he destroyed every other universe.

The creators also backed up this point. They said it's impossible to go to other universes other than America Chavez. Branch universes are different as time travelers can go to them like in endgame.

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Multiverse

I know this isn't official, but it will have its sources and at least shows support for this view and it's not just one or two people.

I think the loki show was just messy as it didn't explain this well

ThePurpleSoul702026-01-02 10:13

Then where did the other versions of Kang come from, huh? Cause they sure as shit didn't come from other branches in your understanding, otherwise they'd all look identical.

It's one multiverse.

MirkwoodWanderer12026-01-02 10:20

Kang can come from the other branches. That's one of the reasons they wanted to prune the timeline branches. They didn't want anyone to get out and connect with the other universes.

So there are kangs outside the sacred timeline in the full multiverse, and the tva is trying to stop other kangs appearing in the sacred timeline.

ThePurpleSoul702026-01-02 10:37

Well according to you, the Kangs would only be different if they were from entirely separate universes. There's only one Kang in the Sacred Timeline, and that's the one that's human, born in the 31st Century, and looks like He Who Remains. Not the reptilian one, the blue one, or Rama-Tut, or any with any distinguishing characteristics. They'd all look the same if your understanding was true here.

So tell me, what actually is your distinction?

Because to me, it seems blurry at best and null at worst. What counts as a branch? What qualifies as a whole other universe? What actually makes them different?

Strange pretty clearly said that the visitors in NWH were from "other universes." Now if only America can travel between universes, how could they be in 616?

This is an entirely semantic argument and entirely unimportant to the actual understanding of the media. The Many-Worlds interpretation works fine and there's zero reason to think the situation would be otherwise.

MirkwoodWanderer12026-01-02 10:55

>Well according to you, the Kangs would only be different if they were from entirely separate universes

When did I say that? They could be different from timeline branches. Alligator loki, sylvie etc are from timeline branches.

>What counts as a branch? What qualifies as a whole other universe? What actually makes them different?

Branches originate from the same point. So they're the branches of a tree. A different universe has a different start point, I.e. a different tree. It's not murky

>Strange pretty clearly said that the visitors in NWH were from "other universes." Now if only America can travel between universes, how could they be in 616?

Because the magic broke down barriers. So complex magic can help. Like dream walking.

In MoM, they said America Chavez was only in one universe. If every universe is just a timeline branch then there would be a branch in the future with her in.

>This is an entirely semantic argument and entirely unimportant to the actual understanding of the media.

It's not semantic as it changes the understanding of the multiverse. For example, you'd think that loki is holding every universe in his tree but I disagree and think there are universes outside the ones loki is holding.

>The Many-Worlds interpretation works fine and there's zero reason to think the situation would be otherwise.

You're trying to use a scientific theory to explain mcu without evidence of it being true in the mcu.

It's not enough just to say, "it makes sense in other fiction so let's just assume it happens here as well"

Just to be clear though, if you think you're correct, you should tell the mcu wiki to do a major overhaul.

If mcu want to retcon that, it's fine but it would be a retcon.

KostisPat2572026-01-02 09:51

Yeah, Michael Waldron, who wrote both Loki and MoM has already explained this.

Meizas2026-01-02 10:33

Those are two elements of one multiverse - you are wrong.

Stride3452026-01-02 10:47

There is a forest of trees. They each have branches. Choices and changes create branches but those don’t affect the other trees

SonOfRageNLove262026-01-02 10:51

Loki still used showed the existence of universes where Thor is a frog, Loki is an alligator, and Kang was born centuries before most of his variants are.

If those huge differences can be caused by singular moments branching the MCU main timeline, then you could justify parallel universes like 828 also being branches from the main timeline caused by some crazy butterfly effects. Or they are a branch of a branch of a branch of a branch...

Then you also have Deadpool & Wolverine, which opens another whole can of worms for this theory, cause then it turns out the TVA, who could only travel to branches of the sacred timeline, had access to the multiple Fox universes (based on the characters that were in the Void), which are so different from the MCU and each other that they should be parallel universes, not just different timelines. But again you could see them as really distant branches

We could go crazy analyzing how can it all make sense. I just dont think they put that much thought into it.

spad3x2026-01-02 10:56

Thor the Dark World also had Malekith try and bring about an incursion FYI.

CalamitousVessel2026-01-02 11:00

I’ve been thinking about it this way for a while now, it certainly makes a lot more sense to me.

Fair_Walk_86502026-01-02 12:51

This is how the comics work/differentiate it to.

Big difference is time travel works a little inverse to how it’s shown in the MCU. In the comics, characters CAN alter the timeline via time travel (not stuck with a set version of history). And what happens to the original future, that they changed? Well, it continues to exist, but it detaches from the “original” universe it was connected to and becomes a separate universe — like a preserved xerox copy of the original timeline.

Here’s an example, the post-apocalyptic future in Days of Future Past? That was originally the future of the 616 universe (the main comic continuity). But because Kitty Pride went back and time and changed it, so that the dark future never happened, the 616 universe now continues to exist *with a different future.* Like, the dark future continues to exist as well, *but it’s no longer the future of the 616 universe.*

The Ultimate universe, on the other hand, is its own independent parallel universe with no relation to the 616 universe. It has its own history, which doesn’t correspond to ANYTHING in the timeline of the 616 universe, it’s NOT a reaction of splitting offshoot of 616 in any way shape or form. A truly distinct alternate reality.

Granted, in the comics the multiverse is also really not a thing compared to the movies, it’s basically all the 616 universe (with Ultimate on the side). So in the comics, alternate realities are mostly the first/time travel kind.

Visible_Safe_89012026-01-02 13:44

The Multiversal war happened bcz of incursions.

ManitouWakinyan2026-01-02 14:21

I'd the diversion happened that long ago, what are the odds we got a Loki at all?

BackgroundEngineer112026-01-02 14:50

Branches aren't exclusively caused by time travel. Yes, a branch was caused in Endgame by Loki stealing the cube because of the time heist, but other branches are caused by naturally occurring variations. Branching timelines are not inherently bad, but there is an inherent risk with every Kang that he will become a megalomaniac.

I had a similar thought that the TVA were only pruning 616 and each numbered universe has its own timeline, but that wouldn't explain the very different Loki variants in the Void and the existence of any Fox characters in the Void. The TVA were very much pruning other numbered universes and unless they each had a separate loom around a unique timeline, all numbered universes are part of the Sacred Timeline.

DontDoodleTheNoodle2026-01-02 18:09

You’re getting the idea that timeline divergence branches and parallel branches are not the same.

But if you follow the divergent branches down long enough, eventually, they end up becoming parallel irregardless of their origin.

Loki (the series) just explains *why* parallel branches exist in the first place.

Elnino382026-01-02 19:53

Timelines and universes are interchangeable based on multiverse theory, which is how time trael works in the MCU

knotsteve2026-01-02 20:26

Two things you can almost be sure of: Marvel will include something in the next two Avengers movies that makes things more confusing, and some fans will insist it all makes sense.

Crafted_Pickaxe212026-01-02 23:37

One of us! One of us!

If you don't already, watch A bit of Everything's channel. He's covered in detail how it works.

ReddiTrawler20212026-01-03 00:39

It's a Multiverse of Madness!

SirFritzalot2026-01-03 00:40

What are we, some sorta Multiverse of Madness?

sanddragon9392026-01-03 13:25

It's typically been that way in the comics as well. For instance, the Days of Future Past timeline is a separate parallel earth within the Marvel Multiverse...when Kitty goes back in time and prevents Kelly's assasination, the timeline she came from branched off into its own earth distinct from Earth 616. Rachel Summers later came to 616 from this earth.

But then you have something like the Ultimate Universe (*both* of them) which have seemingly always had an independent existence (though the new one was tampered with and reshaped via time-travel).

For what it's worth, it's possible that the cinematic DCU is following the same model as well. The Flash movie linked time-travel to the creation of the Multiverse. And Gunn has both said that his DCU is the result of Flashpoint *and* that the DCEU possibly exists as a parallel earth to the DCU. The implication to my mind is that Barry's actions in the movie created the Multiverse (or at least, created new parallel earths within the multiverse), and the DCU is part of that.

Universal_Watcher2026-01-03 17:58

Correct. It deals with both the Many Worlds Theory and the Eternal Inflation Theory. They are separate concepts. but they are connected in the MCU. It basically just means that there are universes/timelines that are branches of another, and ones that have completely separate origins. People can deny it all they want, but that is what is shown and confirmed both on and off screen. I recommend looking that the YouTube channel "A bit of Everything". He does a good job breaking all of this down and you'll be part of a growing community of people who now see the truth about the MCU multiverse that is undeniably at play and essential to Doomsday and Secret Wars.

Edit: It is also important to focus on the adjectives (branch and parallel) rather than the nouns (timeline and universe) because the nouns are interchangeable until you specify with correct adjectives to draw the line.